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Heavy police presence for Harrow Central Mosque protest

9:43am Wednesday 12th August 2009 in News Photograph of the Author By Tristan Kirk

THOUSANDS are expected to descend on Harrow for a Bank Holiday protest against the borough's new mosque.

Demonstrators recruited through the internet are taking to the streets outside Harrow Central Mosque, saying they oppose plans for a Sharia Law court in the new building.

The protest, throughout the day on Saturday, August 29, has been advertised on right-wing websites and organisers are expecting at least a couple of thousand to join in.

There are fears the protest could turn nasty, after a similar demonstration in Birmingham last weekend descended into a pitched battle between police, protesters, and Islamic groups.

However, Bill Baker, one of the organisers of the protest, said ties had been cut with groups English Defence League and Casual United, who he blamed for the trouble in Birmingham.

He told the Harrow Times marshalls would be escorting protesters from Harrow and Wealdstone station to the mosque, in Station Road, and would be on the look-out for trouble-makers.

He said: “We all live under one set of rules and that's what we expect from Muslims as well.

“Why can't they just decide whether they live in this country under our laws or move to a country that uses Sharia law?”

He added: “I am loyal to my country and I don't believe racist extremism of any kind should hijack this issue.”

Protesters have been recruited through a vast array of internet sites and Facebook group, with messages like: “The planned Islam centre is not only a mosque but a five-storey building containing education centre for new converts to Islam and also sharia law courtrooms. This must be stopped so please come along to our passive protest and bring your friends with you.  Don’t forget to bring some banners and your St George’s cross flags.”

Harrow police found out about the protest via the internet, and have been holding high-level meetings with mosque leaders, senior police chiefs, and Harrow Council.

They are planning to be out in force during the protest to avoid a repeat of the ugly scenes in Birmingham.

In a statement put out ahead of the demonstration, the police said: “We recognise people's right to protest and we will ensure that there are sufficient police resources deployed on Harrow borough to facilitate any legitimate protest.”

Councillor Susan Hall, deputy leader of the council, said: "One of our main priorities is to build stronger communities and those who wish to use Harrow as a stage to try and drive a wedge into that community and ferment division - whether they are religious extremists or political fanatics - do not represent what Harrow is about.

"Nonetheless, we respect the right to demonstrate and we are confident our police partners will ensure this event, if it takes place, will go ahead without causing fear or intimidation to any of our residents."

Comments(47)

SeaBee says...
4:17pm Wed 12 Aug 09

Mr Kirk, 8th line from end "ferment division" should read "foment division" (ferment, convert a carbohydrate to alcohol; foment, to instigate)

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SeaBee says...
8:45pm Wed 12 Aug 09

OK Superstudent18 what are we going to make of this lot. I'll make a start, I don't have a problem with the Sharia courts if they are a sub-set of the arbitration process. Each of the individuals concerned in the process have to agree that the Sharia court is the appropriate place to settle their differences (much like the Beth Din for Jewish people). Where I do take issue is where individuals are compelled by their community (families, neighbours etc.) to use the system. I understand that under Sharia law, that a man's word is worth more than that of a woman and in the case of inheritance issues, a male relative (son) is entitled to a greater share of a dead parent's wealth than a female relative (daughter). This would appear to be in conflict with equal opportunities legislation in the UK. I am not a lawyer but I guess that, in these circumstances, the members of the Sharia court would accept that UK law will take precedent. Does anyone out there know if this is the case? How do we ensure that UK law takes precedence? The floor is open.....

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SuperStudent18 says...
11:39pm Wed 12 Aug 09

I do hope UK Law would take precedent over Sharia Law to be honest.
I don't think a separate court on such issues is a way to bring communities together, it would only perhaps serve to alienate and cause further division between communities. In terms of a court relating to the arbitration process, I am all for it.

I do hope the anti-mosque protests pass without any clashes or problems, however.

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OpenMindedThinker says...
9:52am Thu 13 Aug 09

One simple question.

How many people protesting have actually gone to an Islamic scholar and quizzed him about the details of Shari'ah law instead of carrying on with the high and might 'Defence of Britain' charge, pumped up by far right rhetoric in origin?

Most of them aren't interested in thinking this much - how about being a bit more educated in your approach? Maybe they can do the sensible thing first and ask for a community debate on this issue WITH your Muslim neighbours present instead of acting like it's the Inquisition and jumping barmy over an extension.

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SuperStudent18 says...
12:54pm Thu 13 Aug 09

Post above this; couldn't have said it better myself.

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OpenMindedThinker says...
6:26pm Thu 13 Aug 09

I'm sorry but I am a practising Muslim and I do not see a problem wih non-Muslim children studying in Muslim schools. I can see many being attracted to the strong morals and high standards that many Muslim schools strive for.

Nonetheless, people react very strongly when the minority build up hysteria, and this is exactly what the protesters will, knowingy or unknowingly, be taking part in.

Reason it through first and talk with us, the Muslim community, instead of feeling embarassed or improper about it. Protest after you know all sides of the argument, otherwise you are only fanning the flames of suspicion and hatred.

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SuperStudent18 says...
6:38pm Thu 13 Aug 09

Iftikhar, as a Muslim myself, I find the debate on the justification of Muslim schools a contentious and tightly fought one. Both sides produce good, valid arguments, and you have indeed put your view, and the view of your organisation adequately.

However, when I read your statement: "Racism is deeply rooted in British society. Every native child is born with a gene or virus of racism..." I felt compelled to reply.
I must tell you as an Asian Muslim who went to a state school, that this statement is utter rubbish.
British people are generally the most tolerant and forbearing in not only Europe, but the world.
The attitudes of the majority of British people are to be commended, in terms of their views on multiculturalism, and their celebration - on the most part- of this is brilliant.

Some native indigenous vote for the BNP. Indeed those that do, or have done recently, I beleive voted for them as a protest vote, but more than that - as a way of venting their frustration at the current system. They are not inherently racist.

I honestly believe that the majority of British people will accept any person into this country, of any race, colour or creed - as long as they are law-abiding, tax-paying citizens.
As long as we don't bother them - we shouldn't be bothered ourselves. Lets mix with them, celebrate our differences and accept that in many MANY ways - we owe them more than they owe us. It's time to give as well as take, my Muslim brothers and sisters. We, as well as immigrants from areas such as Africa and the West Indies may have brought a slice of our culture - be it music or art or food, but we have also been given a tremendous amount of support to flourish.

Where else would we find free healthcare, free education and warm, generally welcoming people such as the Brits? Forget our differences, lets celebrate what we have in common first.

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Davidz says...
10:05am Fri 14 Aug 09

Brilliantly put in general, it is refreshing to see a good quality debate and opinions expressed as above. By all means criticise objectively where it is badly needed but do feel happy and grateful for good things on the other hand. Many problems are mutual and universal and a few might be exclusive but NOTHING which can not be resolved with better communication, understanding and role models.

We need both hands to clap properly.

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SeaBee says...
12:19am Sat 15 Aug 09

OpenmindedThinker, I am not a practising Muslim and I have very strong objections to non-Muslims being educated in Muslim schools and, in fact to Muslim children being taught in Muslim schools. But I have the same problem with any child being educated in any denominational school. The proper place for religious education is in the home or in religious establishments after school and at weekends. Schools have enough problems teaching the basics of Reading, Writing, Mathematics, the Sciences, Foreign Languages, History and Geography and the pointless task of teaching for vocation skills, (the proper places for this being Technical Colleges and apprenticeships when the students are more mature).

Getting back to the point however, as I understand it, Shari'ah Law is all encompassing, based on The Holy Koran/Quran and adherents have no need for any man made laws. This of course is inimical with the legal system in modern democracies. Laws are predominantly man made (as opposed to being spelled out in a religious tome) and are often at variance with the religious tracts. To have universal acceptance of Shari'ah law in parallel with man made law is a recipe for disaster. For example acceptance, or not, of homosexuality, of extra-marital sexual relations, whose law would have precedence? Shari'ah punishment would result in imprisonment for the punishers under state law. As I stated in my original letter, I have no problem with Shari'ah or Talmudic arbitration provided that there is no coercion, but that is the limit of my acceptance. I'm not sure from your letter where you stand on the scale of no Shari'ah to complete Shari'ah By the way, don't be sorry about being a practising Muslim, I'm a devout atheist and am completely without sorrow.

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jackdaw says...
3:35pm Sat 15 Aug 09

We should obey the laws of the land and if we disagree with them go through the proper procedures to have the law repealed or amended.

If everyone decides they will pick and chose the laws to obey there will be chaos!

We cannot choose which laws we will obey because otherwise a burglar could say it is against his wishes to comply with laws against theft.

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Enoch Powell says...
4:14pm Sat 15 Aug 09

The root cause of the protest is the allowance of Mass unfettered, unrestricted legal and illegal immigration and the resultant exponential birth rates. Furthermore, the indiginous population have never been consulted on Mass Immigration (not Immigration per se)and there has never been an Act of Parliament, referendum or mandate from the people allowing this. Unpalatable to the liberals but fact. Within the indiginous population there is a deep fear of Islam, not misunderstanding, as currently as it is perceived to be 'gentle', 'open' and 'tolerant'. Only a few weeks ago, Peter Hitchens from the Sunday Mail said on the Big Questions on the BBC that Islamic ideology was to become the primary religion in the UK, and on demographic trends that may well be case in the future. Incidentally, Mr Hitchens was not challenged by the presenter or the audience on that point. Therefore, where a majority prevails, change is ultimately inevitable. As we live in a democratic country, it is only right that people should be able to peacefully protest, and this protest should not be hindered by the fascists from United Against Fascism, who use violence, or immigrant groups. There should be an acceptance that protest is a genuine up-held tradition of UK democracy.

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Richard_at_Harrow says...
8:16pm Sat 15 Aug 09

Welcome brothers. There may be a billion galaxies with a billion stars each – but given the population forecast – I know which side my bread is buttered (its opposite the unbuttered side).
Seabee – you know what happened to Rome? – They let the barbarians live with them. Constantine brought Christianity to Europe. Now a more peaceful, merciful and tolerant religion looks set to dominate Europe. I have converted. Oh yes – its true. I have a compass and prayer mat (actually the compass is part of the mat) and I pray 6 times a day (sometimes its 7 cos I’ve lost count – but I figure it will go down well with the boss for those days when I can’t manage 6). My religion is a shining beacon of hospitality and goodwill and shows what is possible with a great religion behind you (and in front).
I welcome Religious Courts. – Afterall we won’t have to wait for MP’s or the existing agencies to enforce the law. I want to know when we can also resume stoning (I’ve got some particularly sharp stones saved up), amputations and public flogging ( I also have some whips).
Brothers – I’ll be back – as it is time I washed for prayers and I mustn’t keep the boss waiting. God is great. PBOU my brothers (and sisters).

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Bill Baker says...
11:00pm Sat 15 Aug 09

Firstly I would like to say that we have not ignored the police at all and they have been informed about this event and we requested to protest this issue.

This is not a protest against Islam as a religion but against Shariah law being applied to the muslim community in disregard of our statutory laws as passed by our government. We have several faiths and cultures in this country that all abide by these principals and a secondary legal system for the muslims would not only be against all our values of democracy, but would open up a whole new agenda for any religous group who wish to govern themselves and ignore the laws of the land, where would we be then I wonder? If this becomes acceptable for one religous group in the country then why not for all of the various religions in this country. A two tier political system is unnacceptable and if all the other faiths in this country have to abide by the law of the land then so should the muslim community. No matter how trivial they say it is and what matters this law relates to, it should go through the due processes and be heard in our courts that are run by the state judicial system. The Sikh and Hindu community in the Harrow area have been consulted concerning this issue and are in total agreement with the principal of our protest and have also voiced their concerns of how the government is pandering to the Muslims in this country, disregarding the fact that it is creating interfaith tentions and is setting intergration back in terms of decades. Allowing Shariah Law to proceed in this country would only fuel extremists on both sides of the political barrier.

One Law for all, it is as simple as that and those wishing to live under Shariah law may do so elsewhere, but not in Great Britain.

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Bill Baker says...
11:50pm Sat 15 Aug 09

I wrote a letter to David Cameron concerning this issue and this was the reply



Dear Mr Baker,



I am writing on behalf of David Cameron to thank you for your recent e-mail.



We have made our position clear on Sharia courts – they can be given no authority over criminal and family law matters in Britain. Our law must reign supreme, and the next Conservative government will make sure it does.

We believe that the introduction of Sharia law, would only act to undermine society, particularly at a time when more, not less, integration is needed. The big challenges facing the country are how we end state multiculturalism, enhance cohesion, promote opportunity and build a stronger society.

Thank you, once again, for writing to David.


Lets wait and see but I dont pin any hopes on the conservatives at all as they are also pandering for votes in the coming elections

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SeaBee says...
6:04pm Sun 16 Aug 09

Enoch Powell, So you have a problem with the Irish, or was it the Romans?, or the Angles?, or the Saxons?, or the Huguenots? or the Jews? or the Normans?, or The Scots? or any of the other cultures which have served to populate Engerland, or do you have a particular problem with those from the Indian subcontinent? Where did your antecedents come from?

Richard _at_Harrow, Is your comment ironical? As my teachers would have written, MTH.

Bill Baker, Essex. Mr Baker if you have a problem in Essex, then sort it out there. We in Harrow do not, I believe, have a problem. I'm not enamored by the design of the mosque but that has more to do with the architecture than its contents. But, it is there and it is better than what was there before. With regard to Sari'ah law, I think that you will find that it is a 'fait accompli'. Whether you like it or not, Shari'ah law is extant in the Muslim community. Accepting its use in arbitration means that it is subsumed in UK law. Denying its use means that we will have a community with parallel unofficial laws. Your call, but I know where I stand.

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Habib says...
6:18pm Sun 16 Aug 09

I hope the protest passes peacefully. as far as I know, no Sharia Court is actually being planned at the new building. This building was essentially built to meet the prayer needs of the community.The old building had become too small for Friday Prayers. So a new building was built to provide more space.




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SeaBee says...
6:50pm Sun 16 Aug 09

Habib, Amen to that, probably the most sensible posting on this vexatious subject (apart from mine of course).

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Bill Baker says...
8:28pm Sun 16 Aug 09

So Seabee, then it would be fine for anyone who does not agree with the government to ignore its laws, not pay taxes as they didnt vote for the current extablishment and reject any ruling of a local magistrate as they are not of the same ethnic group and dont hold the same religous values.

I have no problem with mulsims having mosques to pray and worship god in whatever aspect they view god in, as it is their right to have religous freedom to worshipas they please, but they have got to decide whether Islam is a poltical organisation or a religion as it cannot be both and is unnacceptable to the vast majority of us, no matter what part of the country Shariah law rears itself in the community. The building is an afront to our soveriegnty and should not be allowed without guarantees that no Shariah court rooms are included or it is used for any other political or militant activity other than religous or community gatherings. You may be willing to accept shariah law as part of our legal system but the majority will not in anyway accept this. Should this be allowed it will only give credibility to extremists and make more people consider voting for politcal parties that promise to resolve these issues, but are also a threat to the intergration of our communities, divinding bigger wedges between our many cultures and faiths in this country than those wedges that already exist.

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SuperStudent18 says...
8:59pm Sun 16 Aug 09

I thought my comments were rather sensible earlier, Seabee. haha.

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Enoch Powell says...
9:27pm Sun 16 Aug 09

See Bee, My problem is with Mass Immigration not Immigration per se, whether it be White Poles, Asian Muslims or Black Africans because we are tiny island with limited resources and infrastructure. The question is, where was the consent for Mass Immigration, which has not been enshrined in legislation or a referendum. I see you are silent on that issue, and therefore I will take your silence is an agreement with fact. One of the resultant effects of Mass Immigration is the growing issue of Shariah Law, which the overwhelming number of people in this country find an anathema. It's purpose is to create a state within a state. That is not acceptable to all of the UK. You can't just segregate Harrow, and say we will have this little enclosed area with its own legal framework. Ask the permission of the people of the UK to create Shariah Law, and then act on its answer which will be a resounding NO.

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Habib says...
11:02pm Sun 16 Aug 09

I believe the Muslims and wider community of Harrow are overall a peaceful and law abiding community. This debate about Sharia Courts doesnt really involve us; as no Sharia Court is actually being planned here. Please leave us in peace.

.

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SuperStudent18 says...
11:21pm Sun 16 Aug 09

The UK may be a tiny island, but goodness me there is a whole load of open space. If you have ever, in a plane, looked out of the window and seen the acres and acres of unused land that we could put to use, there is space for everyone =)

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Enoch Powell says...
11:29pm Sun 16 Aug 09

Super Student. Where is all the infrastructure going to come from to build on our green and pleasant land. I presume the tax payer, who have already had over 100+ taxes forced on them over the last 12 years. Also, I thought the UK was skint but you seem to suggest we can build with impunity, and you have forgotten the golden rule, nobody is asking the majority of people what they want, and more houses, schools, hospitals, roads etc is not that, they want the exisitng services to work. We are also the most overcrowded counrty in Europe (England that is) as all recent population growth has been implemented in blighty. Even David Attenborough says we are overcrowded, and you can't argue with him. Your argument is limited.

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Bill Baker says...
12:54pm Mon 17 Aug 09

I disagree and although the numbers of immigrants arriving may be a bit over the top lately and a strain on the country resources, the majority of immigrants and theirskills they bring have been one of the strengthening points of the UK and many have come and contributed to the economy and been welcomed. They have merged into our society and accepted our laws and traditions as well as bringing their unique culture with them and are mostly an asset to the UK in most respects. But now we have an intolerant clique of Muslims who are set on imposing Shariah law on the Muslim community as well as altering our laws to accomodate their requirements. This is never going to happen and is an affront to those of us that are willing to allow intergration and stave of racist bigots. One law for all, that is set by our duly elected government, this cannot be negotiated and has the backing of the majority of Britsh society from all cultural groups who beleive in this country and its duly elected government.

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Enoch Powell says...
1:30pm Mon 17 Aug 09

Whilst I absolutely agree with Mr Baker's comments about radical Islam and the implementation of Shariah Law, he can't on one hand agree that immigration is slightly over the top affecting Public Services and then disagree that Britain is not overcrowded when there have been accurate studies of the UK's population in comparison with other European Countries. Furthermore, there is the issue of a booming world population, which will only increase the issue of immigration. Yes to controlled limited immigration subject to health, criminal and financial checks but no to MASS unfettered, unrestricted legal and illegal immigration, of which one of the effects is the impact of Shariah Law.

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Bill Baker says...
3:22pm Mon 17 Aug 09

In my last post I should of been more explicit on my views on immigration. The recent mass immigration to this country has been badly managed and the drain on resources is not the fault of the immigrants, who merely wish to seek a better opportunity in life for themselves by coming to the UK. It is the fault of the idiots in government who have not considered the economical impact and drain on resources such as housing, NHS, policiing and education. The immigrants that have been here now for several generations are also feeling the strain on the country resources and mostly agree that anymore unchecked and unrestrained immigration to this country only impedes the nations ability to divide resources to ensure the quality of life for those of us already here. However we should still consider refuge for those that are fleeing conflict and oppression, but better screening procedures should be put in place, not the current shambles and hectic system that has fallen apart and has no definable system of management or implication to ensure security is in place. We have so many chiefs in the civil service but not enough indians who actually know what they are doing, or have a policy to work with.

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Bill Baker says...
3:33pm Mon 17 Aug 09

The following site and article says it all. It was on this site that they have discussed the sharaih law courts being in Harrow at the new mosque

http://www.islam4uk.
com

Our aim is simple: Izhaar ud Deen (Domination of Al-Islam worldwide).

Subsequently, living in Britain we target to convince the British public about the superiority of Islam and expose the fallacies of man-made law, thereby changing public opinion in favour of Islam in order to transfer the authority and power (from those with authority and power) to the Muslims in order to implement the Sharee’ah (here in Britain).

00961 7095 7759 Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad phone number



what more proof is needed,then, perhaps the following?

http://www.muslimpar
liament.org.uk

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Enoch Powell says...
5:43pm Mon 17 Aug 09

Mr Baker's comments in immigration and Shariah Law are spot on except for the issue of Asylum, the foundation of which emanates from the 1951 UN convention of refugees which was designed to help a few people fleeing Communism. The current system is outdaded, old fashioned and antiquanited and does need revision. Indeed, David Davies of the Tories, when he was Shadow Home Secretary, said this is something they would look at, which proves that even in political circles they know the current system is flawed.

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SuperStudent18 says...
6:21pm Mon 17 Aug 09

As a Muslim, let me just say that "islam4uk.com" and "muslimparliament.or
g" are not fair representations of the views of the majority of Muslims in this country.
These law-abiding tax-paying Muslims feel that even the Muslim Council of Britain, which is seen as moderate does not even represent the Muslims.

You speak of the majority of Brits not too keen on the implementation of Shariah Law in the UK. To dissect this even further, I am quite sure that even asking Muslims in this country if they want the brutal Wahhabist Shariah Law of Saudi Arabia implemented here, they would answer with a resounding NO.

Nobody wants this extreme interpretation of Islam, the only form of Shariah Law even remotely acceptable would be that regarding simple legal arbitration between Muslims only. Anything more than that requires the pooling of opinion of Muslims in the UK before anyone else, and thereafter a hierarchy and criteria to implement further 'laws'.

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SeaBee says...
7:20pm Mon 17 Aug 09

Can we not just leave it with Habib? A very sensible individual and an example to us all.

Unplanned mass imm (I've just reread my first sentence)

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SeaBee says...
7:35pm Mon 17 Aug 09

No, I just can't help myself. To the Muslim population of Harrow, avoid the area around your new mosque when 'Enoch Powell' 'Bill Baker' and their ilk conduct their protest To those who are not Muslims but wish to support them, if you really do support do likewise.

We will then have the Bhuddist concept of one hand clapping or to misquote an old headline 'Massive earthquake in Peru, no Britons injured'

Those who oppose the new mosque are a little late and if we ignore them they will be denied the phlogiston (look it up lame brains) of publicity

Peace, Salaam. Shalom,(alphabetical order) to you all

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Bill Baker says...
7:37pm Mon 17 Aug 09

Dont you see that even arbitration of trivial matters is unnacceptable if not in our main legal system. Could you imagine if we all set up different courts to govern our own cultural groups? What if an Asian magistrate had a racist thug before him and the racist thug then had the right to ask to dismiss the Asian magistrate because he was not of the same ethnic group or a African rapist claiming that he wants an Angolan, Rwandan or whatever country he is from to be his judge. This is the type of situation that we are opening up the floodgates for and if Muslims have their own court procedures for no matter whatever reasons for who would not say it is their legal right to ask for, as what is justifiable for one culture is justifiable for another.

One law, for all of us whether it is for commercial, domestic or criminal purposes, then we all know where we stand and are treated equals in the community.

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Enoch Powell says...
9:40pm Mon 17 Aug 09

It really is quite simple. The British judiciary system is the template of law for this country and we are not going to give an inch to another form of law, which could be Paretto's Law to Shariah Law, or a watered down version of Shariah Law. As I said earlier, the British system of law is the model not only for the UK, but for other democratic countries. Therefore, why are we even having this debate and just because you state the obvious that does make you draconian.

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Enoch Powell says...
9:47pm Mon 17 Aug 09

It really is quite simple. The British judiciary system is the template of law for this country and we are not going to give an inch to another form of law, which could be Paretto's Law to Shariah Law, or a watered down version of Shariah Law. As I said earlier, the British system of law is the model not only for the UK, but for other democratic countries. Therefore, why are we even having this debate and just because you state the obvious that does not make you draconian.

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SuperStudent18 says...
10:07pm Mon 17 Aug 09

The above two posts perhaps forget that there is an exclusively Jewish legal framework in this country - the Beth Din as Seabee pointed out earlier.

Is this solely an attack on Muslims or are you going to protest outside their courts also?
And Bill Baker, you are COMPLETELY missing the point, with respect.

Your example about a 'racist thug' and 'Asian magistrate' is made completely redundant in this case due to one simple fact. My earlier letter pertained to ARBITRATION in potential Sharia courts - between MUSLIMS AND MUSLIMS alone, who wish to handle their divorces and such things in an Islamic way, with both parties eager that this should be so.
There would be no biased sentencing, no racial subjugation, no miscarraiges of justice, and all parties would be content with the Islamic ruling, which they seeked in the first place. JUST AS, the Jewish couple who wish to divorce go to their Beth Din legally - without a fuss and without a mass demonstration on their doorstep, so too do the Muslims wish for the same right.

Enoch Powell, you say "we are not going to give an inch to another form of law.." but you already have!
As mentioned the Beth Din operate on their Jewish and Talmud legal framework. Or is that okay because they are not Muslim?

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Enoch Powell says...
10:48pm Mon 17 Aug 09

From a non-Muslim perspective, the concern non-Muslims of all persuasion have is what else will Muslims want legally if Shariah Law even in its most minute form is left to flourish. Where it is reported today that the Afghan Govt are going to pass a law allowing a man to starve a woman for denying him sex to appease Shia Muslims, I am worried what is the underlying future desire of Muslims in the UK. This has not been answered by any Pro-Shariah Law texts in this debate. I know what I want, and that is UK law to be the sole legal system for every citizen in the UK. A system that has been tried and tested for centuries and duplicated in other countries. There is no finer testament than that. I do however respect the wishes of the Muslim majority in a predominately Muslim country to set their own legal system.

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SeaBee says...
10:55pm Mon 17 Aug 09

SuperStudent18, Wall, head, banging, brick, against. Give up, leave it for a couple of hundred years and you will gain acceptance, apart from the odd beating up, graveyard desecration or mosque burning
Alternatively take your labour and that of the other immigrants elsewhere and Messrs. Powell and Baker can feast themselves on what remains of the UK's. resources. Mainly grass.

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Enoch Powell says...
11:10pm Mon 17 Aug 09

SeaBee, I don't recall Mr Baker or myself asking people to leave the country. We may have touched upon a dreadful immigration system, not perpetuated by Muslims, but by politicians past and present either through incompetence or an agenda, but we are asking for the maintenance of a tried and tested UK legal system that has been in place for centuries and its model duplicated in other countries. I really don't know what the problem is. Neither are we advocating violence of any form, but I note that you forgot to mention Muslims abusing British soldiers in Luton and a Muslim march in London proclaiming UK YOU WILL PAY BIN LADEN IS ON HIS WAY. In the interests of balance, you could be a bit more expansive.

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tikismikis says...
1:34am Tue 18 Aug 09

"We cannot tolerate laws and customs against the human rights.

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SuperStudent18 says...
1:46am Tue 18 Aug 09

There are indeed a small minority of Muslims who acts in a disgusting manner, 'Enoch Powell'. The Luton protests against the returning soldiers is a prime example of that. But no ethnic or religious group is perfect. There are Muslim fundamentalists, Christian Evangelicals, Jewish Extremists, Hindu Extremists and so on.
What disappoints me as a Muslim is that there is never official condemnation from a Muslim organisation of the acts such as in Luton.

Powell you must realise that the majority of moderate Muslims dissociate themselves from the extremists. We want nothing to do with them. For a proper debate on Sharia Courts you must first distinguise between orthodoxy in religion, and religious fundamentalism.
Perhaps Seabee was right. It does feel like I'm banging my head against a wall here.

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Born_Pict says...
3:06am Tue 18 Aug 09

Examples of an enlightened legal code??think not

1. Offensive, military jihad against non-Muslims is a communal, religious obligation;
2. A person who is ignorant about Islamic legal opinion must follow the legal opinion of a scholar;
3. The penalty for a Muslim apostate (someone who no longer believes in or no longer follows the tenets of Islam) is death;
4. When slaughtering animals for food, a knife must be used to cut the windpipe and gullet;
5. A woman is only eligible to receive half the inheritance of a man;
6. Marriage may be forced on virgins by their father or father’s father;
7. A non-Arab man may not marry an Arab woman;
8. A woman must seek permission from her husband to leave the house;
9. A Muslim man cannot marry a woman who is a Zoroastrian, an idol worshipper, an apostate from Islam or a woman with one parent who is Jewish or Christian, with the other being Zoroastrian; a Muslim woman cannot marry anyone but a Muslim;
10. A free Muslim man may marry up to four women;
11. Retaliation is obligatory in most cases when someone is deliberately murdered except when a Muslim kills a non-Muslim, a Jew or a Christian kills a Muslim apostate or a father or mother kill their offspring;
12. Non-Muslim subjects (Ahl al-Dhimma) of a Muslim state are subject to a series of discriminatory laws – “dhimmitude”;
13. The penalty for fornication or sodomy is being stoned to death;
14. The penalty for an initial theft is amputation of the right hand. Subsequent thefts are penalized by further amputations of feet and hand;
15. A non-Muslim cannot testify against a Muslim in court; a person who is “without respectability” cannot give legal testimony; a woman’s legal testimony is only given half the legal weight of a man’s (and is only acceptable in cases involving property); to legally prove fornication or sodomy requires 4 male witnesses who actually saw the act;
16. The establishment and continuation of the Islamic Caliphate (by force, if necessary) is a communal obligation;
17. Sodomites and Lesbians must be killed;
18. Laughing too much is forbidden;
19. Musical instruments are unlawful;
20. Creating pictures of animate life is forbidden;
21. Female circumcision, which includes the excision of the clitoris, is obligatory;
22. Slavery is permitted;
23. People may be bribed to convert to Islam;
24. Beating a rebellious wife is permissible; and,
25. Lying is permissible in a time of war (or jihad).

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Bill Baker says...
10:58am Tue 18 Aug 09

Orthodox religious practices are fine, providing they do not cross the permiters of laws set by our government. Any form of arbitration between two people based on a religous sect rather than that of the government legal system is not acceptable. Many muslims came to this company to escape Shariah law extremes and allowing it indiluted form is like planting a seed and the vile and unnacceptable aspects of Shariah law will then take root if we allow it too.

I agree that it is only a minority of exteme muslims promoting the advances of Shariah Law and respect the reasoning that the majority of muslims are good people and want no part of extremism, but the apologists in government that are backing down constantly to these extremists and their demands, endanger not only the moderate muslim community into being dominated by these people but the whole of our society in general. A line needs to be drawn somewhere and Sharaih Law stopped in its tracks before it causes dissent and gives rise to radicals using this issue to further weaken the progress we have made so far in strengthening our intergrated cultures under one banner.

We want the moderate muslims who support our nation to stay here and contribute as they have done and welcome their cultural values as part of our diverse and great society and the majority of people despise the radicals who call for the expulsion of foriegners as the bigots they are. But those with extreme Islamic views who feel they cannot live under our man made laws but must be dominated by their religious values rather, should consider alternative places in the World to live.

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Bill Baker says...
1:57pm Tue 18 Aug 09

After assurances that no Shariah Courts will take place in the new centre the protest has been cancelled and we wish the local community of Harrow all the best for the future.

Our protest against Shariah law group is not against anyone or seeking confrontation, we only wish to uphold the values of an intergrated community where all are respected as equals under one law.


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SeaBee says...
9:44pm Tue 18 Aug 09

Bill Baker, I'll wait and see until 30th August, but if as you state the protest has been cancelled, then I can only welcome that.

We, in Harrow really don't have a problem with Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Christians, Seventh Day Adventists, Bhuddists, Druids, Mormons, whoops, nah, I'll still invite them in for a conversation, Sally Anne or any other Deitists

Thank you for your input and that of 'EnochPowell', I guess that any further comments can be found under ;'Harrow Central Mosque has no plans for Sharia Court meetings' Oh and Harrow Police, if the protest has indeed been cancelled, can we now expect a saving in overtime claims

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leon gramsci says...
3:56pm Mon 24 Aug 09

So now the truth is out. The racists and fascists are merely concerned with causing maximum division through spreading of lies and misinformation.
Nazis in the 30's in Germany, Mosley in Britain in the 30's and now BNP and their mates today.
They are using this to spread their evil message of so-called racial purity.
Do not be fooled by them . A racist lie on top of another racist lie leads to death camps and the Holocaust.
Harrow rejects them and say go back into the sewer where you belong.

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Bill Baker says...
5:50pm Tue 25 Aug 09

The England United group who were originally arranging a peaceful protest at the Harrow Mosque for the 29th of August against the Mosque having Shariah courts there were satisfied by the statement made by the secretary of the mosque and that is why we called of our protest. His assurances that no courts would take place and that they embraced British citizenship proudly as British muslims and would deny extremists a platform in their community was accepted and applauded by our members. We are against any form of Shariah law being imposed in this country and the extremists who promote anti British sentiment and not the Islamic faith itself. We unanimously support our fellow British Muslims who have to endure the Jihad extremists who try and usurp their religious values for politcal gain and wish them well in their struggle to rid themselves of these radicals. The marches that have been planned for September have nothing at all to do with us and we do not support them in anyway as we feel the Harrow Muslim community has more than justified itself and expressed their wishes to be part of Britain and abide by one law that we as citizens of this nation are all equal under. Extremism for any reason be it politcal or religion needs to be targeted in this country and eradicated.

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Bill Baker says...
5:50pm Tue 25 Aug 09

The England United group who were originally arranging a peaceful protest at the Harrow Mosque for the 29th of August against the Mosque having Shariah courts there were satisfied by the statement made by the secretary of the mosque and that is why we called of our protest. His assurances that no courts would take place and that they embraced British citizenship proudly as British muslims and would deny extremists a platform in their community was accepted and applauded by our members. We are against any form of Shariah law being imposed in this country and the extremists who promote anti British sentiment and not the Islamic faith itself. We unanimously support our fellow British Muslims who have to endure the Jihad extremists who try and usurp their religious values for politcal gain and wish them well in their struggle to rid themselves of these radicals. The marches that have been planned for September have nothing at all to do with us and we do not support them in anyway as we feel the Harrow Muslim community has more than justified itself and expressed their wishes to be part of Britain and abide by one law that we as citizens of this nation are all equal under. Extremism for any reason be it politcal or religion needs to be targeted in this country and eradicated.

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